Idle Thumbs 210: Pro Fish Smart Fish

[Gormongous]

I'm glad that so many people are into Hardcore History, because anything that gets people thinking about the past in new and different ways is good just for that, but I personally find Dan Carlin to be very frustrating to listen to, at least when it comes to anything about which I have any professional expertise. As I've said elsewhere, Carlin has a talent for rooting out the most extreme interpretations of any historical figure or event and a penchant for employing those interpretations because they're interesting rather than necessarily true, which are both things against which I've struggled myself in my own career as a historian, so they're really hard for me to take in stride. I honestly think that the "hardcore" part of his history holds him back from doing "good" history more than you might think, if only because the large-scale, often cataclysmic nature of the narrative that he's telling doesn't always leave room for the mundane or personal moments that are often just as important to our understanding. No, everyone's a rock star or a badass or whatever, and that really turns me off. Don't get me wrong, Carlin's engaging in a way I wish I could be and has an incredible nose for stories, I just can't enjoy him or recommend him to anyone myself.

 

Also, people intrigued by how Twilight Struggle models its political landscape are strongly encouraged to check out Labyrinth: The War on Terror, 2001-?. Like Twilight Struggle, it's a two-person card-driven "wargame" that begins immediately after the invasion of Afghanistan and pits the United States against an international jihad. The amazing thing about it is how completely different the two sides' methods and objectives of play are. Rather than two superpowers with similar ways of waging war, you have just one, conquering countries in the traditional way in an effort to stabilize the Middle East for the values of liberal democracy, while jihadists don't even really have troops, since their objectives are either to smuggle a nuclear device into the US or to exploit US blunders with sleeper cells to sap the energy of its coalition and spread fundamentalism in the Middle East. Both players are taking turns and using cards in the same way, just like Twilight Struggle, but the feeling of playing two completely different games that only occasionally intersect, even though the objective of one is always the destruction of the other, is pretty damn cool. And then you go from there to the COIN series of games, which are all three- or four-player games that use card-driven mechanics to model the many-sided politics of civil wars. One person plays the government troops, one person plays the local warlords, one person plays the religious fundamentalists, and one person plays the international peacekeeping forces... They're all great, although it's a deep rabbit hole.

[natellite]

I love Hardcore History! But I think it's most useful when used as a jumping-off point for continued interest into an event or period of history than the sole piece of information, because yeah, the show has a bombast problem. It's the complete opposite end of the spectrum from my freshman year world history class, where the professor sat down, lectured from his notes in an unbroken monotone for 50 minutes, stood up, and left. Refreshing and fun, but sometimes a little loosey-goosey on the details. That isn't meant to scare anyone off! But it's good to be aware exactly what Carlin is aiming for with that podcast; namely, an engaging narrative that's fun to listen to.

[Bjorn]

Well, he was asking for a game similar to Neptune's Pride, which exhibits similar characteristics to what everybody was mentioning here.

 

Also, not to cast aspersions on all these people you're talking about, but I think it's nuts when I hear stories like this. What could you possibly do in Diplomacy (or how weak was your relationship already) that it would keep you from talking to somebody you care about? Likewise, if you thought your actions in the game might have that strong of an effect on your friends, why the hell would you go through with it anyway?

 

People are more important than games, folks.

 

I'd say it's the kind of experience that can exacerbate existing fault lines in a relationship.  Some people also take games really, really seriously.  Combine the two and it can be a recipe for disaster. 

[tberton]

Think about a game like Neptune's Pride, where your nerves are constantly frayed because a devastating attack can come at any time and knock you out of a long game. Take away the 24-hour, can't-sleep-we'll-be-attacked aspect, and replace it with your friends lying to your face and betraying you. Not like the coy 'I'm not the traitor' but things like 'don't worry, I've got your eastern flank, you worry about the west, and together we're going to win this thing'.

 

You learn things about your friends while playing Diplomacy that you can never unlearn.

 

No, I get that. I've played Diplomacy. I just can't imagine how I would both i) be close enough with somebody that I'd be really hurt if they betrayed me in a game and ii) be distant enough emotionally from them that I'd be willing to sacrifice our relationship because they betrayed me in a game.

 

But I think it's most useful when used as a jumping-off point for continued interest into an event or period of history than the sole piece of information

 

This advice is pretty good when approaching any work of history. I can't think of anything that I would say is the "last word" on some historical period, group or person.

[tegan]

Holy shit. I figured they'd just be slightly different versions of sweet Kit Kat flavors, not that different. Strawberry cheescake sounds amazing. I might pick up red bead next time I'm there just to see what that even tastes like.

 

I also looked for Ovaltine candy bars the last time I was there because I heard they had those in Thailand and I love Ovaltine like an insane person. Unfortunately the closest I could get were nasty powdery sweettart type tablets of ovaltine.

 

Japanese Kit-Kats are amazing. US Gamer's Jeremy Parish used to import them and write about them for Kit-Kat Densetsu.

[syntheticgerbil]

It's hilarious that website exists. Yellow potato Kit Kats?! I feel like I just need to try half of these simply for being so bizarre.

[natellite]

I would go buck wild on those ginger ale kit-kats. Local news, neighbor interviews, crater in the ground, the whole deal. God damn.

[thainatos]

Dude. I don't think being married to the subject of Pulp's Common People is something I would brag about.

[syntheticgerbil]

I always figured she was the same woman that seems to appear in multiple songs in His and Hers and Different Class (and b-sides I think?) where Jarvis is having an affair with a lady with a rich boring husband. He's also very spiteful about the status of the guy.

[tegan]

I always figured she was the same woman that seems to appear in multiple songs in His and Hers and Different Class (and b-sides I think?) where Jarvis is having an affair with a lady with a rich boring husband. He's also very spiteful about the status of the guy.

 

What if she is and that's why she's been so cagey about whether or not the song is about her.

[syntheticgerbil]

That would be pretty bad, but I don't think her husband will figure it out considering he doesn't seem to have comprehended the tone of just Common People alone.

[toblix]

Whoa, whoa, everyone settle down. This thread is about to go off the rails and outta control with regards to the pronunciation of "toblix". Time for a dose of Real Truth: The word "toblix" was first observed on the Internet sometime in the late 1990s, but did you know: it did not have an official pronunciation until about a decade later, on Wednesday October 15th, 2008 when internet man Chris Remo pronounced it in the second episode of the Idle Thumbs Podcast, titled "The Fanboy's Lament". The first recorded pronunciation of the word has been archived on the internet at this link: 

. You can find it there.

[BigJKO]

Toe-blix is official everyone. It's official. Everyone can calm down now.

[Blambo]

I'll stick to Tob Licks, thanks.

[BigJKO]

Gross!

[toblix]

Anyway, this episode was much better than Episode 5. I'm sorry, but I was looking through my garbage history of posting and found that annoying gem :/

[twmac]

Also, not to cast aspersions on all these people you're talking about, but I think it's nuts when I hear stories like this. What could you possibly do in Diplomacy (or how weak was your relationship already) that it would keep you from talking to somebody you care about? Likewise, if you thought your actions in the game might have that strong of an effect on your friends, why the hell would you go through with it anyway?

 

People are more important than games, folks.

 

 

I DM'd a Hero Quest game with two of my friends when I was about 13, I killed one of the characters they had built up over 4 months of playing. This resulted in a screaming match and them marching out. I didn't speak to them again until I was about 15 or 16.

 

Hero Quest

[osmosisch]

It's super weird to hear the Thumbs discussing fish schooling, which I spent most of my master's and PhD on. Sent in a mail about it. Probably too long to read again.

I guess now I know how Gormongous feels.

[Gormongous]

It's super weird to hear the Thumbs discussing fish schooling, which I spent most of my master's and PhD on. Sent in a mail about it. Probably too long to read again.

I guess now I know how Gormongous feels.

I miss them being into Crusader Kings. It made me feel relevant.

[syntheticgerbil]

Anyway, this episode was much better than Episode 5. I'm sorry, but I was looking through my garbage history of posting and found that annoying gem :/

I barely understand what is going on there.

 

I don't even barely.

[Badfinger]

I DM'd a Hero Quest game with two of my friends when I was about 13, I killed one of the characters they had built up over 4 months of playing. This resulted in a screaming match and them marching out. I didn't speak to them again until I was about 15 or 16.

 

Hero Quest

 

Hero Quest owned!

 

Oh I'm sorry, I have those words in the wrong order. I owned Hero Quest. I recall having fun the 2 or 3 times I played it. Then we used the pieces for a game my friend made.

[Ben X]

I barely understand what is going on there.

 

I don't even barely.

 

Just some thread-closing asshole, I guess.

 

Wow, so Chris didn't get the pronunciation of toblix wrong, he defined it? Mind blown.

[tegan]

I miss them being into Crusader Kings. It made me feel relevant.

 

I miss the glorious two-week window where Danielle played Pokémon.

[Twig]

I miss when they talked about whatever they wanted to talk about instead of worrying about whether or not they talked too much about it already!

 

!

[SecretAsianMan]

I miss them being into Crusader Kings. It made me feel relevant.

 

The main reason I send in candy is so that I can feel relevant.  My personal taste in games doesn't overlap that much with the Thumbs' and they never discuss non-game things that I have any sort of expertise in.