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Idle Viewers: Feminist Film Club (Hedwig and the Angry Inch, 5/18)

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I think we're good on suggestions for the time being, I might actually start slotting these into a big spreadsheet so people can keep up with teh schedule. 

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I hope that we gradually keep slotting increasingly tenuous stuff in until the lower end of the list is like "every episode of Kill la Kill" or "the Bitch Planet comic book series."

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I would fucking love to have a discussion about feminism and Bitch Planet. Maybe if this is successful we could do a thread about feminism and comics, especially since I know we've had some discussions sprout up around that.

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Yeah, Kill la Kill probably isn't going to be a thing in this.

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Watched Alien last night, so I'm ready to go! I went with the Director's Cut, so I'm curious what the differences to the original cut are.

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I watched the Director's Cut as well. Not sure if I have anything interesting to say, maybe I'll just lurk.

I have recently seen more than half of the movies recommended so far, but it will be interesting to rewatch them with a more critical eye.

Would "The Woman" be a good movie to add to this list? I found it extremely disturbing and watching it again wouldn't really be an enjoyable experience, but it might fit the topic well.

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Non-director's cut I think is just a tighter narrative edit overall, with a lot of scenes lopped out. AFAIK. Also if people want to start discussing Alien, we can! I just wanted to give people most of the weekend to actually watch the movie. 

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Non-director's cut I think is just a tighter narrative edit overall, with a lot of scenes lopped out. AFAIK. Also if people want to start discussing Alien, we can! I just wanted to give people most of the weekend to actually watch the movie. 

 

I'm intending to watch it tonight.

 

My attempted research on director's cut vs theatrical actually suggested the opposite, that it's the director's cut that is streamlined for pacing. But there's been a lot of dissent about which is better and what the changes actually accomplished. In the end I've gone for the theatrical cut primarily because it was the easiest for me to get.

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Please tell me some of you aren't choosing the directors cut for your first ever viewing :(

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Besides that one scene and that it moves slightly faster, it's really hard to discern what cut you are watching in my opinion.

 

The scene in question doesn't exactly add anything to the first movie though and only detracts from the Aliens lore, which I like because James Cameron is a butt.

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Just picked up the Alien Anthology blu-ray collection today, so I think I'll get to this tonight. I'm pumped. I've only see Alien once a few years ago, so it will be fun to go back. The horror stuff will be tough though, since I'm a big baby.

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Jesus christ, Kill La Kill. 

Yeah, Kill la Kill probably isn't going to be a thing in this.

*cough* Would any of the Sailor Moon movies be worthy of this club?  :mellow:

 

These comments actually made me curious about female-directed anime, and I was actually rewarded somewhat? Female directors make up less than ten percent of anime directors on a good year, and they usually have to work years as keyframe and storyboard artists before they're given a shot, but this list surprised me. KyoAni has two? That's cool. I'm halfway inclined to submit the K-On! movie, since it's a movie about women by a woman that destroys the Bechdel test because there's barely any men in the movie to be talked to or about.

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Speaking of the Bechdel test, I don't if this was brought up when people suggested we watch Alien for this, but it's appropriate, since Alien is the punchline to the comic strip that originally introduced the Bechdel test.

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Speaking of the Bechdel test, I don't if this was brought up when people suggested we watch Alien for this, but it's appropriate, since Alien is the punchline to the comic strip that originally introduced the Bechdel test.

 

Yeah, although I was kind of looking out for moments that passed it during the film and there's really only one scene in which the two female characters directly talk about something other than a man. Unless you count "raise landing gear"/"landing gear raised". So even Alien only just squeaks by.

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Please tell me some of you aren't choosing the directors cut for your first ever viewing :(

 

I've seen the film before, in what I assume was the theatrical cut. I was a teenager at the time, though, so I didn't really remember anything about it.

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I watched the Director's Cut as well. Not sure if I have anything interesting to say, maybe I'll just lurk.

I have recently seen more than half of the movies recommended so far, but it will be interesting to rewatch them with a more critical eye.

Would "The Woman" be a good movie to add to this list? I found it extremely disturbing and watching it again wouldn't really be an enjoyable experience, but it might fit the topic well.

 

That would have been another one of my recommendations. I absolutely love that film.

 

Also, fuck Kill La Kill. I started watching it and thought the art style was nice and then the bit where she gets her 'suit', ugh.

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Bechdel test is interesting because a lot of people forget that it was more to provide a context to a lack of lesbians in film (iirc), but it's merely a very gimmicky litmus test for something really specific, a very low bar that unfortunately many films don't cross. However, it's not really a litmus test for literally anything else or value for a feminist lens since there's films that pass the Bechdel test that are horrible in other ways. Basically, I want people to look past that one particular thing and look deeper. 

 

To start off - I want to say that having only watched this as a kid, and now as an adult, I am really intrigued by how much of the plot is driven around the idea that Ripley is way more competent and knowledgeable about what should have been done than any of the men on board. Obviously a key to this was that one of the major antagonists was specifically designed to work over her head as an android for Nostromo, but it was ironic to see men literally go over her head for their own pursuits and feelings and might have spared the entire crew horrible deaths. Two key scenes (in the cut I watched) early in really provided the thematic base for Ripley being shot down by both Dallas and Ash. They don't defer to her expertise or the rules given but feel that their own judgement on the matter is superior. It felt very telling and very reminiscent of things in my own life even though no one in my life has gotten eaten by a giant xenomorph. Dialogue is not something I primarily focus on a lot when I watch films because oftentimes the art really comes through in stylistic editing and direction choices but the scant dialogue in this film before the action bits really get going are what really secured my love of Ripley, in the face of both domineering corporate immorality and men continuing into the future with the same BS they pull off now. 

 

Alien really had both a strong anti-cap and feminist vibe for this reason, to me. I also like that despite Ripley originally being written for a man, there's moments that show that that character was pulled away from that initial characterization a bit - she's both athletic and a bit stoic but there's moments of humanity like her saving Jonesy. One of the traps I feel writers get into when wanting to write a "strong female character" is they forget that yes, gender shouldn't be the sole tickybox of a character, but that writing a character irrespective of gender still throws women back into a very masculine place because a lot of male writers don't know how to write strong otherwise. Ripley defies this in some ways by being compassionate as well as smart. 

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To start off - I want to say that having only watched this as a kid, and now as an adult, I am really intrigued by how much of the plot is driven around the idea that Ripley is way more competent and knowledgeable about what should have been done than any of the men on board. Obviously a key to this was that one of the major antagonists was specifically designed to work over her head as an android for Nostromo, but it was ironic to see men literally go over her head for their own pursuits and feelings and might have spared the entire crew horrible deaths.

 

This is true, though I must admit given it was made in 1979 I was expecting more flagrant sexism from the characters that never really came. No one ever made reference to her gender or suggested she couldn't do anything because she was a woman. I'm not sure whether this is a sign that my preconceptions about films in the late 70s are wrong (maybe sexism was already a bit more subtle by then), or whether it's a sign of the exceptionality of Alien.

 

That said, I will say that there were still moments of portrayal of the characters that seem somewhat gendered by the film itself (ie. it's the camera that is sexist, not the characters). The only characters we see cry at all are the women. Ripley briefly seems about to begin crying when she reads the special order, and the Lambert is semi-sobbing on multiple occasions. In fact she's seemingly the only one who is really panicking when Dallas is in the ducts, and the panic sobbing seems... conspicuously feminine? I can't imagine the scene being done that way with one of the men sobbing like that.
 
She's again paralysed by panicky crying while Parker shouts at her to get out of his line of fire to the alien, and it could be argued that her womanly hysteria is what gets him killed - he has to rush in close to try to save her. No other character in the film is shown acting in this manner. They're either never put in the position, just being murdered too fast/off screen, or they're shown acting stoically or even heroically. Lambert is the only character who gets screen time during moments of weakness - she's the only one who is SHOWN to be weak, who actually behaves like a victim.
 
Meanwhile, however, Ripley is a great character and acts like a human, but a competent and serious one. It's still surprising and great today! I can't imagine what it must have been like to see in '79.

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Agree that there were both strong anti-cap and Feminist vibes to the film. Interesting how I perceived the early Ripley very differently to you but that probably has a lot to do with the 'side' I would have taken when I first watched it.

 

I always saw Ripley as a bit of stooge in the beginning of the film, she gives both the engineers shit and keeps quoting the company line back at them. They act like total arseholes but for me it is the legitimate way that two blue collar workers would react to a superior who bosses them around with little understanding for what they do (hence why they are able to pretend the steam is not manufactured by them and actually a problem with the ship).

 

Later when Kane is brought back on the ship, Ripley tows the company policy of Quarantine she doesn't act emotionally the way that pretty much everyone else does and only acquiesces eventually.

 

There is real tension between her and all the crew as she kind fo walks around with her stick up her arse and that greatly led to me initially sympathising with Dallas as the peace maker. Of course my expectations were turned on their head, but that is mainly to do with the fact that films had largely taught me that you had to be brash and follow your heart as bureaucracy will mainly be your undoing.

 

That is not to say that I don't think Ripley is brilliantly written, her growth from company yes-person to brief leader, to hero is great and I do think that the way that I now relook at her character's interactions with the rest of the cast makes for some interesting light.

 

But.

 

I wonder how much of that was there in the original script (I was under the impression that they hadn't decided Ripley's gender at the time of first draft but I could be wrong).

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Yeah, I think the history of how the story and the character actually came into being would be really fascinating to dig into because I think there's definitely places where she shines as a character. What might have colored my perception is that I watched this along with a really die-hard feminist Alien fan and she explained to me some stuff as we were watching (including where jump scares were, because I'm a giant baby.)

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I always saw Ripley as a bit of stooge in the beginning of the film, she gives both the engineers shit and keeps quoting the company line back at them. They act like total arseholes but for me it is the legitimate way that two blue collar workers would react to a superior who bosses them around with little understanding for what they do (hence why they are able to pretend the steam is not manufactured by them and actually a problem with the ship).

 

Later when Kane is brought back on the ship, Ripley tows the company policy of Quarantine she doesn't act emotionally the way that pretty much everyone else does and only acquiesces eventually.

 

There is real tension between her and all the crew as she kind fo walks around with her stick up her arse and that greatly led to me initially sympathising with Dallas as the peace maker. Of course my expectations were turned on their head, but that is mainly to do with the fact that films had largely taught me that you had to be brash and follow your heart as bureaucracy will mainly be your undoing.

 

While I can see where you're coming from now, I didn't read Ripley this way at all while I was watching the film. The scene where Parker and Brett ignore her requests over the noise of steam came across as someone who often had to deal with not being respected, and dealt with it by being slightly abrasive back to them. But yeah, I think I was slightly off-base with this reading. I still find Ripley a sympathetic character, though, as she clearly has the best interests of the crew at heart, and her fastidiousness is borne out to be warranted, as things start to turn to shit. She comes across as more competent and level-headed than her male counterparts throughout, too, in a way that doesn't feel like an overt attempt at a 'strong female character', but as someone who is just good at her job, and wants to hold things together as they start to fall apart.

 

One thing that I wanted to discuss was the scene on the shuttle, after she puts Jonesy in a pod and strips to her underwear, before discovering the alien is on-board with her. At first it felt a little gratuitous to me, although not particularly leery (Though I feel like her knickers could have been a bit more substantial), but when the alien appears, this feels like the point at which the rape analogy is the most direct. So I guess it's justified? Or maybe it's just narratively more convenient that she's in her underwear, as she has to don the space-suit while she's in the closet.

 

I had a question about something that wasn't really clear to me as I was watching it; after Ripley starts the self-destruct countdown, and is being chased by the alien, she at one point decides she needs to cancel the self-destruct sequence, just before the cut-off point. Maybe it's just because I was quite tired, but I couldn't figure out why she changed her mind about this.

 

As a side-note, I really love the production design. The '80s futurism stuff, all green CRT displays and lights and cold angles, is so STRONG. There are shades of 2001's space station in the Nostromo's design, but less sterile in places. And man, there are a couple of shots of the Nostromo's exterior that clearly influenced Red Dwarf's credits sequence and interstitial shots.

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