Jake

Idle Thumbs 205: LPBs and HPBs

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I just started watching Steven Universe on a recommendation from a friend. I liked Adventure Time when it was about goofy people having adventures, and for me the moment it got boring was when it tried to have a big mysterious backstory where all the characters were secretly lesbians. I guess Steven Universe just jumps directly to that point because every other episode has some subtle reference to a big convoluted back story and I just find it kind of tedious because other than that it's a fun show. Or maybe I'm just a crotchety old man yelling about cartoons that aren't made for me, but it seems like loads of people my age really like this stuff and I can't understand it.

 

I guess what I'm really saying is stop trying to make me care about Lore, his TNG episodes were the worst.

 

See, I think Steven Universe is one of the absolute best examples of how to do this right. It's backstory and surrounding world are layered in piece by piece, always in a way that makes sense and always in service of developing the characters and their motivations. It's never necessary to delve too deep into it to understand what's going on, but it's also clearly very well thought through and not just slapped in at the last minute. That's my favourite part about the show. Without that it's just mindless anecdotes.

 

Also, Lore's TNG episodes were awesome.

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I think there's a big difference in tone between Warcraft and Warhammer; in Warhammer, everyone's terrible, and it's a fight between the bad and the worse. In Warcraft, there's a lot more well-intentioned factions, but their intentions lead them catastrophically astray.

 

More or less, depend much on which edition of Warhammer Fantasy could be. Anyway, in Warhammer Fantasy, conflict is more, let say,  much more internal: how Chaos could corrupt you (the constant fear of chaos everywhere, witch-hunts, inquisitions, paranoia, even what would be external forces are more internal, see as main chaos forces are in fact humans), how everything was at the very brink of destruction. while at least in my perception WoW was more about the external conflict and threats (the orcs, burning legion, undead). While Warhammer 40K was more about how each faction fanatisicm is driving them toward their own ruin.

 

Like it was said, I got to agree that lore might require engaging, that might also explain why it work so well for dark souls, since the it´s own intentional gaps helped to encourage players to try to fill it, and so made them debate about it. Meanwhile information which the players have not much to wonder, engage, or debate might got forgotten very fast.

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...at least in my perception WoW was more about the external conflict and threats (the orcs, burning legion, undead).

 

They've settled into a groove where while there are external sources of conflict (burning legion/Lich King/Old Gods) they largely inflame existing tensions. There's a strong thematic element of power and influence being inherently corrupting - the leaders who manage to hold power without being super racist or just straight-up evil are basically saints (and likely also doomed), and almost universally, anyone who covets power will use it for bad ends.

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I just started watching Steven Universe on a recommendation from a friend. I liked Adventure Time when it was about goofy people having adventures, and for me the moment it got boring was when it tried to have a big mysterious backstory where all the characters were secretly lesbians. I guess Steven Universe just jumps directly to that point because every other episode has some subtle reference to a big convoluted back story and I just find it kind of tedious because other than that it's a fun show. Or maybe I'm just a crotchety old man yelling about cartoons that aren't made for me, but it seems like loads of people my age really like this stuff and I can't understand it.

 

I guess what I'm really saying is stop trying to make me care about Lore, his TNG episodes were the worst.

 

One of the major foundations in Steven Universe (alongside just endless positivity), has been the feeling of just being a kid and not really knowing anything. People are always sort of talking about things you don't understand, or talking around stuff they don't want you to know about yet or similar things. My impression on the timeline is a little bit hazy, but I think starts with this feeling permeating the whole show. 

 

On the other hand, I'm also a huge fan of secret lesbian backstories, so there's that. 

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I think there's a big difference in tone between Warcraft and Warhammer; in Warhammer, everyone's terrible, and it's a fight between the bad and the worse. In Warcraft, there's a lot more well-intentioned factions, but their intentions lead them catastrophically astray.

 

That's what I didn't like about Warcraft 3 and WoW. In Warhammer everyone is terrible, but in WoW everyone is just misunderstood. Sometimes I don't need to know that such and such badguy was abandoned by his parents and that's what made him evil.

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I think there's a big difference in tone between Warcraft and Warhammer; in Warhammer, everyone's terrible, and it's a fight between the bad and the worse. In Warcraft, there's a lot more well-intentioned factions, but their intentions lead them catastrophically astray.

This tracks pretty well to me. I think this is probably because Blizzard seems really obsessed with the idea that everyone should be identifiable and relatable. Everyone is a power fantasy for the player, you imagine yourself in their shoes and think how awesome it would be to be them, even if tragic. Whereas Warhammer offers some of the power fantasy, but a lot less of the relatability; it's much more distanced. Individual heroes are the stuff of legends, whereas in Warcraft they are meant to seem much more personal.

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This tracks pretty well to me. I think this is probably because Blizzard seems really obsessed with the idea that everyone should be identifiable and relatable. Everyone is a power fantasy for the player, you imagine yourself in their shoes and think how awesome it would be to be them, even if tragic. Whereas Warhammer offers some of the power fantasy, but a lot less of the relatability; it's much more distanced. Individual heroes are the stuff of legends, whereas in Warcraft they are meant to seem much more personal.

 

I was rethinking about this and have to agree. Because, meanwhile, Gamesworkshop goes the other way - some factions are, I guess, really meant to be unrelatable like the Dark Eldar, Necrons, Chaos Hordes, Undead ect... and in theory, feel as something alien (I could be wrong, but didn´t the Black Library books had some kind of guideline of all book had to be Space Marine/Imperial Guard PoV, because they which to keep the other factions sense of mistery? I could be really wrong on this) (or maybe is just still a slight left over of 80/90 themes/troopes/aesthetics/feeling).

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See, I think Steven Universe is one of the absolute best examples of how to do this right. It's backstory and surrounding world are layered in piece by piece, always in a way that makes sense and always in service of developing the characters and their motivations. It's never necessary to delve too deep into it to understand what's going on, but it's also clearly very well thought through and not just slapped in at the last minute. That's my favourite part about the show. Without that it's just mindless anecdotes.

 

How does a person actually watch Steven Universe anyway?

 

That is, what streaming service is it on?

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I think some episodes are on Cartoon Network's website and it's available on iTunes. I watched it more illicitly though.

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I just realized that Sean and Chris both used the same horrifying portmanteau of "no sweat off my back/brow" and "no skin off my nose/teeth" that my friend used to say by accident but now says because he knows that it makes me flinch.

 

Also, I was thinking, and doing a lore dump at the beginning of your game is kind of like demanding that someone learn their multiplication tables before you'll teach them math. In the abstract, they're both the most efficient way to habituate someone to a new set of rules, but there are just so many other ways to do it these days that forcing rote consumption and memorization without any kind of framework is mostly just a sign of someone who really doesn't know better (or who thinks their stuff is good enough that they don't need to know better).

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I have an interesting relationship with Warcraft lore. I've never played WoW beyond level 10 and played through Warcraft 3 once; my main interaction with the Warcraft universe is through Hearthstone and lately HotS, yet I spent a significant portion of time last winter break reading through a good chunk of the lore on the WoW wikia. Conversely despite my strange fascination with the lore of the Warcraft universe I can't stand Warhammer's lore, despite the nearly identical themes of generic fantasy races fighting and also there's corruption and muscle guys and massive pauldrons. Maybe Hearthstone has given me just enough sympathy for the characters that I am willing to put up with it all?

 

I find that in general I appreciate the presence of lore in a game without actively engaging with it. Knowing that it's there does make the world feel more complete even if I don't personally know most of it.

 

I went through a similar thing with Warcraft lore at one point while I was playing that game heavily. I think I read through the entirety of that same Wikia for every location, character, and thing that had ever been created for that universe. There was something cool about seeing how the lore slowly evolved from just the backstory for a couple of games to this entire universe that was full of history and interesting characters with various backgrounds and motivations. I feel like they did a pretty good job of stitching a bunch of these random, seemingly incoherent story elements together throughout their various sequels and expansions without leaving too many seams showing and without having to go too crazy with retcons.

 

In general I am a fan of lore as long as it isn't required to enjoy the game. WOW and Elder Scrolls pretty much hit that sweet spot perfectly for me where I had a blast playing them even though I wasn't familiar with the lore and because I enjoyed them so much, it motivated me to want to dig a little deeper into the lore which then enhanced my enjoyment of the games even further.

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I went through a similar thing with Warcraft lore at one point while I was playing that game heavily. I think I read through the entirety of that same Wikia for every location, character, and thing that had ever been created for that universe. There was something cool about seeing how the lore slowly evolved from just the backstory for a couple of games to this entire universe that was full of history and interesting characters with various backgrounds and motivations. I feel like they did a pretty good job of stitching a bunch of these random, seemingly incoherent story elements together throughout their various sequels and expansions without leaving too many seams showing and without having to go too crazy with retcons.

 

In general I am a fan of lore as long as it isn't required to enjoy the game. WOW and Elder Scrolls pretty much hit that sweet spot perfectly for me where I had a blast playing them even though I wasn't familiar with the lore and because I enjoyed them so much, it motivated me to want to dig a little deeper into the lore which then enhanced my enjoyment of the games even further.

 

Warcraft 3 and WoW also did some serious retconinng to make sense of the first two games.

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Warcraft 3 and WoW also did some serious retconinng to make sense of the first two games.

 

That's true, and I think the stuff surrounding the history of Draenor was the worst offender but I think it could have been much worse considering how all over the place those stories were.

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Was thinking about lore in the shower this morning, remembered the conversation from this ep's reader mail section, and absolutely the first place I went was to the time-stamped Youtube video of this episode. It was fantastic.

 

Thanks, Driggs!

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I had a conversation about lore the other day that clarified for me why lore obsessed people bother me so much: They let questions of fictional fact or history trump a deeper reading of a story. People who are obsessed with questions like what caused the apocalypse in Cormac McCarthy's the Road or is Deckard Cain a replicant will try to derail discussions of the themes of those works with those questions. That kind of preoccupation with lore is counter to deeper readings because all you want is more superficial information. I don't think an interest in lore necessarily means you're incapable of more meaningful readings of things, but I think those kinds of questions act as barriers to more interesting questions.

Edit: okay, maybe the question of whether or not Deckard Cain is a replicant is pretty interesting, but I meant the other Deckard. The Blade Runner one.

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I really disagree with that.  Isn't the question of whether Deckard is a replicant pretty integral in exploring some of the themes of Blade Runner?  Like what does it mean to be human, what are the natures of self identity and memory?  Those questions are already present thanks to other replicants, but ambiguity of Deckard is what really leaves room for some good discussion.  It's not so much answering the question, as it is asking it.  Of course, if you obsess purely on looking for clues to that question, I can see your point, but I don't feel like that's a thing I see that often. 

 

Also, well crafted lore (ala Dark Souls) invites interpretation and discussion.  You can drill down on specifics and get lost amongst the trees for awhile, but sometimes that's fun and lets you see the forest differently when you pull back out. 

 

I guess I don't see it as an either/or proposition, but if you encounter someone who does, I can see why that would be frustrating. 

 

Also, Deckard Cain was totally a replicant. 

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Also, Deckard Cain was totally a replicant. 

 

"Stay a while and listen... but not longer than four years, I'll be dead after that."

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I really disagree with that. Isn't the question of whether Deckard is a replicant pretty integral in exploring some of the themes of Blade Runner? Like what does it mean to be human, what are the natures of self identity and memory? Those questions are already present thanks to other replicants, but ambiguity of Deckard is what really leaves room for some good discussion. It's not so much answering the question, as it is asking it. Of course, if you obsess purely on looking for clues to that question, I can see your point, but I don't feel like that's a thing I see that often.

I've met a few people who need an answer to the question of if he's a replicant. The question isn't any leaping off point for anything about class or memory or identity, it's just a question of internal fact. I guess my beef is that lore tends to look inward when more interesting questions tend to be outward facing -- what a work says about the world outside of itself, not just about itself.

Those questions are fine to start at, but there are people who start and stop at them.

Deckard Cain is definitely a replicant though. Look for my tumblr with a 10,000 word essay on how this is justified by the lore of both Blade Runner and Diablo soon.

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"Stay a while and listen... but not longer than four years, I'll be dead after that."

 

Every Deckard Cain is actually a new replicant made by the Horadrim to obscure their real movements and motivations, for they are the Illuminati of the Diablo universe. 

 

LORE!

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I've met a few people who need an answer to the question of if he's a replicant. The question isn't any leaping off point for anything about class or memory or identity, it's just a question of internal fact. I guess my beef is that lore tends to look inward when more interesting questions tend to be outward facing -- what a work says about the world outside of itself, not just about itself.

Those questions are fine to start at, but there are people who start and stop at them.

 

I guess that's just not a person I've encountered often, so I'm relatively lucky. For some people I suppose certain types of stories are puzzles to be solved, with nothing more to be gleaned from them.  Which, I can have some fun with stuff like that, but I'm never so invested as to not want to have a discussion about other themes and elements as well. 

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Lore thoughts: While I don't like fantasy all that much, I really like knowing the technical side of how magic manifests in the world. Is it purely a mental action? Does it require words or actions to bring about? What is the source of power and who has access to it? Often this is just a starting point to thinking about how it parallels real world beliefs about the supernatural (I've thought a lot about the parallels between Dragon Age's positions on magic and Christianity) and it's really fruitful.

 

That said, sometimes midichlorians happen and you just want to forget it all.

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