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Rob Zacny

Episode 301: John Tiller's Squad Battles - First World War

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Ils ne passeront pas!

 

The Winter of Wargaming plods forward, inch by inch, straining through the rain and grime amidst a hail of enemy artillery and rifle fire. The trenches never end, a maze of mud and blank-faced soldiers so far beyond rational thought that their only solace lies inward toward thoughts of home and hearth. But wait, who's that ahead going over the top? It's Rob, Bruce, and Troy "Who Took My Cheese Rations?" Goodfellow here to talk about John Tiller's Squad Battles - First World War. Is this entry into the venerable series the volume that finally makes trench warfare fun?

 


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Just Googled this game and damn, this is new release?  I guess I never played 'wargame' in the strictest sense so the idea of this kind of archaic UI being part of 2015 release from a veteran developer just seem so strange and surreal to me.

 

It looks like someone is trying to make a game on Planetary Annihilation's scale using Dune 2's UI.

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Wait a second, are you trying to tell me that this screenshot isn't absolutely tantalizing?

 

FWW_7.jpg

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Great podcast. One minor correction though, John Tiller is self publishing and is not a part of HPS Simulations any longer.

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Wait a second, are you trying to tell me that this screenshot isn't absolutely tantalizing?

 

That screenshot looks more like my game development software than any games I actually play.  For better and (mostly) worse.

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You can hide weapons counters by going to the View and clicking Weapons off they explain a lot of the complaints in the Designer Notes ;).

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I didn't have a problem picking this series up and playing it, despite how archaic the UI is, but I can easily forgive it on the basis of its ambitious subject matter. With that said, First World War is the one installment that I find myself avoiding, largely because of the unit count. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it and I'm happy to see a tactical WWI game, but it's a design that I look at and say that there has to be a better way to cover this. 

 

Rob, Tim Stone loved this, so you're probably on the right side of history with this one.

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I occasionally wonder if you might get a better WW1 game if you were put in charge of R&D, production and logistics, but had no control over the troops.  The combat would be AI driven, and the AI generals would make requests, but they'd operate on the basis of what they had and what you could get them, where, when, and with how much (and how accurate) advanced notice.

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I forgot to say that I'm happy that you guys didn't talk about the campaign game that's included in the SB titles, as I don't think there's much to talk about with them.

 

I occasionally wonder if you might get a better WW1 game if you were put in charge of R&D, production and logistics, but had no control over the troops.  The combat would be AI driven, and the AI generals would make requests, but they'd operate on the basis of what they had and what you could get them, where, when, and with how much (and how accurate) advanced notice.

 

Provided that game didn't succumb to Grigsbian levels of micromanagement and detail, I would totally play that game. 

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Hi folks!  Interesting episode.  It seems like you guys weren't too keen on this game.  I've been trying to consume any and all WW1 media as of late.  I just finished Fall of Giants which is a historical fiction book regarding the events up to and including WW1.  It's not exactly a reliable source but it was entertaining nonetheless.

 

At this point I have two questions for the community here: 1) Can someone recommend me a good WW1 game?  I've been looking at Commander: The Great War (I know there was a show on this not too long ago), as well as Battle of Empires 1914-1918.  The John Tiller game piqued my interest but after listening to the podcast I'm a little deterred.  Any suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

and; 2) Would you peeps mind recommending me some other WW1 media?  Doesn't have to be video/war game specific.  Any books, movies, shows, podcasts, etc.  Really anything.  As I mentioned I just finished Fall of Giants, I've read All Quiet on the Western Front, and I'm currently listening to the BBC WW1 at home podcast.  Again, any suggestions or thoughts would be welcomed!

 

Keep up the great work 3MA -- you guys rock!

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You can hide weapons counters by going to the View and clicking Weapons off they explain a lot of the complaints in the Designer Notes ;).

 

While you can turn the Weapons off, they only disappear from the map view, so you're still tripping over them when you have units in the same hex.  And the map view gets these ugly squares that are almost worse than having the weapons there.  I don't think it helps much, but you're right to point it out.

 

But my objection is to the design element more than the implementation.  While I understand the economics of these games, I think that having this in the game is a poor design choice, because it is an element that is irrelevant to the historical gameplay.  The implied thesis in the Squad battles series is that squad-level warfare can be modeled by essentially the same rule set whether it is 1965 or 1915.  I don't think that's really a supportable thesis.  

 

I have read the designers notes, but again, my experience of the design effects is different from their intended effects, I think.  The designers can explain all they want, and I do like reading about their reasoning and decision-making, but ultimately it has to be an entertaining game.   :)  It was for Rob, and less so for me and Troy, I think.

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Hi folks!  Interesting episode.  It seems like you guys weren't too keen on this game.  I've been trying to consume any and all WW1 media as of late.  I just finished Fall of Giants which is a historical fiction book regarding the events up to and including WW1.  It's not exactly a reliable source but it was entertaining nonetheless.

 

At this point I have two questions for the community here: 1) Can someone recommend me a good WW1 game?  I've been looking at Commander: The Great War (I know there was a show on this not too long ago), as well as Battle of Empires 1914-1918.  The John Tiller game piqued my interest but after listening to the podcast I'm a little deterred.  Any suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

and; 2) Would you peeps mind recommending me some other WW1 media?  Doesn't have to be video/war game specific.  Any books, movies, shows, podcasts, etc.  Really anything.  As I mentioned I just finished Fall of Giants, I've read All Quiet on the Western Front, and I'm currently listening to the BBC WW1 at home podcast.  Again, any suggestions or thoughts would be welcomed!

 

Keep up the great work 3MA -- you guys rock!

 

For WWI media, I think there are several essential pieces:

 

1.  There is a Channel Four series based on Hew Strachan's history.  It's similar to Ken Burns' style, but more streamlined.  This is the best video documentary on the war I have seen.  There was a 4-disc set from Image Entertainment and a 3-disc reissue from Entertainment One.  I have the older one and from the reviews the newer one may have better technical specs, but the content is the same.

 

http://www.amazon.com/First-World-War-Complete/dp/B0009S2K9C/

 

http://www.amazon.com/First-World-War-Complete-Series/dp/B00IS6WPT2/

 

2.  Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August was published in 1962, won the Pulitzer Prize, and over 50 years later is still the best book ever on the origins of the war and the first months up to the Marne.  It reads like a novel but has the analytical depth of a monograph.  Possibly the best book ever written about the First World War.  There is no substitute.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-August-Pulitzer-Prize-Winning-Outbreak/dp/0345476093/

 

3.  Sir Alistair Horne is a prominent British historian of France who has written several classic books, but one of interest to you would be his celebrated work on Verdun, The Price of Glory.  Horne is an accomplished historian, brilliant storyteller, and his command of French is superlative.  He was able to interview many participants at the time, and his access to the sources was unprecedented.  He wrote a great book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Price-Glory-Verdun-1916/dp/0140170413

 

If you watch that video and read those two books (one on the origins and its ultimate turning point, and the other on one of its iconic moments) then you will be better educated on the First World War than 99.9% of the people you may meet. ;)

 

As for a video game on the war, I will leave that to others.  To be honest, I'm not sure there is one I'd recommend.  I remember liking Frank Hunter's Guns of August 1914-1918 from Matrix http://www.matrixgames.com/products/331/details/GunsOfAugust1914-1918 but besides that I think the offerings are lacking.  If you really want to play a game about WWI, play Paths of Glory http://www.gmtgames.com/p-426-paths-of-glory-5th-printing.aspx or at least watch the movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050825/ ;)

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and; 2) Would you peeps mind recommending me some other WW1 media?  Doesn't have to be video/war game specific.  Any books, movies, shows, podcasts, etc.  Really anything.  As I mentioned I just finished Fall of Giants, I've read All Quiet on the Western Front, and I'm currently listening to the BBC WW1 at home podcast.  Again, any suggestions or thoughts would be welcomed!

 

Keep up the great work 3MA -- you guys rock!

 

Besides All Quiet and Guns of August, I would recommend "A World Undone" by G. J. Meyer, a terrific single volume history of WW1. It is extremely readable, and I promise you, you will understand the causes and effects of the Great War after reading this book. There are quite a few WWI boardgames, but I have not played many of them. There have been a lot released just in the last few years. Computer treatments are slim pickings.

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Thank you both spacerumsfeld and MikeO!  I'm half way through the Channel Four series and a few of those books are already in my "cart" for order.  Again thank you both! 

 

Alas, it seems like the search for a good video game will continue.  I'm still looking into the ones suggested but not sure if I want to take the plunge on them. 

 

And any movie with Kirk Douglas has got to be viewed!  That snarl!

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