Sal Limones

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Posts posted by Sal Limones

  2. Posted

    I find it very hard to empathize with these people. They're hurting whatever cause they think they are fighting for.

    I don't think they're "fighting for a cause" at this point so much as "lashing out in frustration and desperation". The dam has broken.

  3. Posted

    I think those things *are* problematic and they certainly are discriminatory by definition, if not "sexist" or "racist" - that's the point, it's a sliding scale of discrimination: where do we want to draw the line? No Straights clubs, No Blacks clubs, No Non-Blacks awards

    These examples are the result of a group of people feeling so disenfranchised/underrepresented/unwelcome in mainstream bars/society that they have created their own spaces.

    Gay clubs are there partly because straight cowboys don't want to have to deal with them homos gayin' it up in their dive -- furthermore, I have never been denied entrance into a gay bar no matter how straight I dress and gay bars are awesome.

  5. Posted

    I'm very conflicted, because on the one hand I agree with everything Sal is saying and appreciate her calm, clear debating style. On the other hand, she dissed my "bigger tits" running joke.

    Maybe if your joke had bigger tits I would have paid more attention to it.

    (I did not, I think it's funny)

    Regarding your response to my post, Sal, I'm not sure if there's some miscommunication here or what because I feel like we're kind of crossing meanings while intending to say the same thing. As I said in my post, I agree that (some of) these problems are due to a patriarchal society, and I agree with you, ThunderPeel, that it's not (for the most part) women who are causing the inequalities that affect men - it's other men. However, as Sal herself echoed from my post, "the patriarchy" does not equal "men".

    I'll repeat what I said, we're all equally conditioned - I never got to pick to live in a society that is largely traditionally under male control, taking the benefits from that in a measured judgement that they are worth the downsides (such as the aforementioned spousal abuse issue). There was no judgement whatsoever, I was just taught, formally and informally, that men are strong and women are weak and that therefore men should protect women and if a man is harmed by a woman it is his own fault for not being masculine enough.

    I'm not saying men have it as bad, and I'm not saying that we don't need to push a woman's agenda, all I am taking issue with is what is exemplified by one line of your post, ThunderPeel: "In fact, none of his examples are, which is why they're laughable -- even the ones that are serious -- because they have nothing to do with feminism or sexism." I am arguing that they have everything to do with sexism, because as you yourself went on to state, they are caused by the patriarchal system that conditioned us all. Furthermore, as you and others have stated, feminism (despite its dodgy linguistics) is the fight against sexism. Hence, male inequality issues are absolutely related to sexism and therefore within the realm of feminism to counter.

    I'm a bit confused now, because it seems we agree completely. But I think what prompted me to reply to your original post was the fact that I felt you were separating the problems Patters mentioned (and seems to blame on feminism, somehow, mindblowingly) from the problems that arise due to the patriarchy, when they are in fact one and the same and part of the targets on the fight for equality.

  6. Posted

    That's going too far, just as Patters' earlier comment that the thread was bullshit and needed to die was too far. I don't know why, in a pretty relaxed discussion so far, this hyperbolic standoffishness has manifested. Whatever the reason, everyone should feel free to chill out for a second and remember that (as far as I've noticed) no one participating in this thread desires to promote inequality - some of us just have different ideas for how to get to equality.

    Acting as if there aren't negative aspects to gender inequality for men is naive, and saying that all of the problems are the fault of patriarchy is not helpful - even if it might be true (and I genuinely mean might, I'm not sure at a glance). "Patriarchal societal structure" does not equal "men" - men and women are equally conditioned for their social roles, most of us did not at some point choose to view men and women in particular, traditional ways.

    Patters brought up spousal abuse directed against men - that is something that happens, even if some people find it funny or even ridiculous, and those attitudes to it (and the lack of seriousness with which it therefore is treated) are created by the conditioned views of gender roles that we've all grown up with. It's not the fault of the men involved, nor really of men in general.

    In reality, equality is not a slider, we can't achieve it by just jumping on one side and pushing. It's complicated and multifaceted and ignoring the male issues involved is just as ignorant and unfair as ignoring the female ones.

    The thing is, the stuff he mentions is caused by gender inequality in a patriarchal society. The view that women are better suited to raise a child, that men are too strong to be raped or abused by a woman, that men are more violent and likelier to be criminals. Also society frowning on men expressing their feelings, or wearing pink, or in general not conforming to what is considered "manly". These are all consequences of the very same societal constructs that feminism seeks to get rid of.

    We are all on the same side here, except the ones who want one gender – or race, or orientation, or whatever – to be above the other(s).

    "The patriarchy" does not equal men. Feminism is not warring against men. I like men. "The patriarchy" refers to the entire social system that has assigned specific values and roles to men and women. And so, the patriarchy really is responsible for all of the above mentioned ills.

  7. Posted

    They're a power fantasy for men more than a fuck fantasy for heterosexual women. Whereas, female characters tend to be fuck fantasies for heterosexual men.

    This is excellently said and needs to be quoted. :clap:

    Returning to the point somewhat, there have actually been some serious PR issues for DC recently regarding sexism. There was a woman dressed as Batgirl at San Diego Comic-Con who asked some very pointed questions about women in DC, both in terms of characters and staff, and DC has been scrambling to respond. I don't have any great links to share myself right now, but a little internet research from someone with a little more time might shed some light on it.

    Here is an interview with the lady in question:

    http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/8130151171/bgsdccinterview

    And here is an amazing audio clip of Didio:

    http://tpbcorner.com/kyrax2/HireWomen.mp3

  8. Posted

    I'd argue that saying you are a feminist is anti equal rights,

    I'd argue that you haven't read the thread, at least the parts where we demistify exactly this.

    Race hasn't been touched on nearly as much as gender, how many games have a black, hispanic or arabic protagonist. GTA is the only one which comes to mind, which while most protagonsts are white males, there are a lot of strong female characters: BG&E, Mirrors Edge, Longest Journey.

    While women are often portrayed with ridiculous proportions etc, there is a reason for this, there are a lot of male adolecent gamers. Anyone who has grown up will realise that these characters are characatures, with zero substance, and the real characters which have appeal are those in the earlier mentioned games, along with HL2, etc. To agree with this we would have to add Lara Crigger and her #naughtyHawkthoughts.

    Oh my god, I am at work and I cannot write all the words I want to write about this. In a nutshell: just 'cause your audience is stupid doesn't mean you have to continue to make stupid games, try making non-stupid games and oh look a bigger audience all of a sudden! asdfjk

    And yes race is handled awfully but this is a feminism thread, wanna go start a race thread? I'd totally back you up on that

    I hereby dub the camp Batman in that image: FemBat.

    I love how he's the only hairy one.

  9. Posted

    You are arguing a point that has been argued roughly infinity times over the course of human history. There is no answer, as long as you consider all people equal then you are doing it right. Can a strong female character not be attractive, can she not wear clothes which she chooses to wear in the fiction. Male characters tend to be targeted the exact same way, the male Shepard, as Thunder has pointed out is quite similar to the very attractive men Matthew Fox and additionally Wentworth Miller. While his female counterpart looks to be a woman in her early twenties.

    This goes round in circles and always will. If I were to argue this point I would focus on race as a problem above gender, look at the reaction to the new Ultimate Spider-Man being black. How many games have believable characters of ethnic minorities?

    Why do you say there is no answer and then immediately state the answer?

    If no one ever had these arguments, and they did in fact always go in circles, then women would not be able to vote, rape would always be considered the woman's fault if she was wearing a miniskirt, homosexuality would still be considered a mental illness, and Custer's Revenge would be a heartwarming Video game about forbidden love. Progress does happen with adult discussion, which is what we're having here as opposed to shouty internet arguing.

    I already pointed out why I even touched the discussion about a Video game I don't really care about at all and that's done with so I won't talk about it anymore.

    Race is handled very problematically, absolutely. That doesn't mean that we should only talk about one as opposed to the other. As a racial minority myself (yep I'm female AND brown) I think they are equally important and should both be discussed. Why do you think it would be more productive to talk about race and not gender?

  10. Posted

    I totally agree and understand, and have made the same point myself in the past. I suppose if you love this particular franchise and you feel let down by it making an overtly sexy character, then I understand. I guess I just don't care strongly about Mass Effect enough to think that this is a particularly bad example.

    It's not even a particularly bad example and I don't even care about ME, and I didn't even introduce the subject, Gwardinen did :C

    I just posted because the thread was going horrible places! And I wanted to clarify the reasonable side of why people are complaining about this character design. The more potential something has, the more disappointing it is when it doesn't live up to it. See: Spore, Fable

  11. Posted

    I do agree with you. All I can say is: Sexiness does not equal sexism. It feels like you're complaining because she's designed to look sexy?

    I'm complaining about how few female characters in video games are not designed specifically to look sexy despite how illogical their designs are for what the character is supposed to do.

    Would you rather we complain about all other video games ever with horrifically few exceptions, or shall we stay on current events?

    and JoannaDark, I am a woman

    This thread is bullshit and needs to die.

    Ok, why?

  12. Posted

    Boobplates. One carefully curved boobplate per boob. Does maleShep have carefully carved pecs in his armor? No. His body armor looks like real life body armor does, if a little more futuristic. Hers does not. Also, massive amounts of eyeliner.

    Just because it's not as bad as it could be or usually is (e.g. Soul Calibur) doesn't mean it's good.

    Also, Thunderpeel, I did say this:

    But hell, all the guys in that sort of game look pretty much the same too, with square jaws and stubble and big muscles, and I guess that just puts their across the board lousy character design abilities in evidence.

    The point I'm trying to make is that the problem isn't that she's blonde, and yes, people who are going "sigh, another blonde bimbo" have some kind of weird problem with blondes; but the reaction is understandable because it's the same thing over and over and over in video games: oversexualized female characters whose main design feature is HELLO I AM FEMALE LOOK BOOBS AND PRETTY FACE. The complaints are valid; they may be aimed at a less ridiculous thing than, say, Lara Croft, but this happens because it could be so good and yet it fell short.

  14. Posted

    Looks like this thread is just going to have to say, "screw the system", and go rogue. All in the name of justice.

    As long as you get results! I got (insert higher-ranking organization here) breathin' down my neck! :(

    Ok but seriously guys. Commenting philosophically on who or what type of lady you do or do not find attractive and how progressive that does or does not make you and making jokes about boob sizes is kind of the worst tangent.

    The problem with the femShep is not hair color. Hell, Starbuck was blonde. The problem is that hair color/style was the only difference between their over-eyelined anime-smooth faces and the armor still has boob plates and is basically designed to be as close to skintight as you can get without making up some bullshit about bulletproof spandex. She was designed to be as conventionally attractive as possible, and that is wearisome and sad. But hell, all the guys in that sort of game look pretty much the same too, with square jaws and stubble and big muscles, and I guess that just puts their across the board lousy character design abilities in evidence.

  15. Posted

    But Chief! FemLink is only a week away from retirement! She can't take down the Patriarchy all by herself!

    Thread, this is the sloppiest page I've ever seen! You're way out of line! You're off the case!

  20. Posted

    I'm of the opinion that chivalry is not dead, and for that I may be slightly crazy, but that comic still rubs me the wrong way.

    I think you've understood this comic to mean the exact opposite of what it means.

    Read the article JamesM posted and you may see it in a different light.

  22. Posted

    I am utterly unqualified to state any of this.

    But you stated it quite well. :yep:

    ThunderPeel, recently I met up with a friend of mine that I hadn't seen in about 10 years. The subject of feminism came up, and she said "oh, I could never be a feminist." I was surprised, but suspected what was up so I asked her to define feminism – sure enough, she thought it was about female superiority. I clarified, and she understood, but then said, "but still, I don't think I could be a feminist." "Why not?" I asked. She replied, "Because some women like getting ogled at and wolfwhistled while wearing skimpy things, and I think they should be able to."

    There are several schools of thought on this matter. There is such a thing as sex-positive feminism, which basically boils down to "do what feels good", and on the other side of the spectrum we have those who believe that certain things like pornography, BDSM, and prostitution have historically harmed women more than not. Personally, this is where it gets complicated for me, because I both agree that anybody can wear whatever does not get you arrested, yet quietly believe that women being brought up to crave a man's approval of their appearance, and society rewarding this, has a lot to do with it.

    But the basic principles of equal rights, equal dignity, equal value in society and equal opportunities are all embraced by all feminists (except the ones that are wrong). Look at yourself in the mirror and go, I am a feminist, and it's ok.

    Relevant:

    9mfyx.gif

  23. Posted

    I get the feeling you use a different meaning for "society". But yeah sure, then I'm privileged. You can also add to the list that I'm intelligent (I have paper to prove that, really), non-religious, have all my limbs, no glasses, or any other serious body defects. But then again, I suck at being pretty, natural languages, drawing, playing the piano, dancing, etc.

    So I think I sort of come out quite neutral.

    You know, after this, and the thing about Custer's Revenge, I have decided I really cannot tell if you're serious or not.

    Just FYI about why, despite being the other half of that combustion reaction on the funny pictures thread, I lapsed into silence.

    Thank you for sharing this (especially the bit about the pendejo game – that is new to me!). I know what you mean and while it would be cool to have more female voices in this thread I totally understand the desire to avoid getting angry at things.

    -or-

    I LOVE UR POST SO MUCH I WANT TO MAKE SEX TO YOU HURR

  25. Posted

    Oh shit! Welcome, wife of Kingz! I had no idea.

    Welp the cat's out of the bag. GIRL ON THE INTERNET

    thanks miffy. :) And I do appreciate your input a lot. I feel awfully pessimistic when discussions about feminism are split along gender lines, so I'm very happy this is not the case here.